Devin O'Neill

Garrett Markenson

Veronica Rose

Ian Ruskin

Alex Cohen

History

Insights

Interview

AC

…I don't remember exactly what my age was, but... I would play with Lego’s a lot, and I would draw. And I think part of Lego’s, for me, was…the fact that whenever I got Lego’s, I would not put them together as per the instructions. I much preferred to have a bunch of random Lego’s - like a box of assorted Lego’s, but not necessarily with instructions to them. Whereas my brother lived by instructions. So even to this day, he'll be drawn to things that are step-by-step, like the scientific process and stuff like that…and anyway I got into making…for example…I don't know why, but I remember creating this… dump truck.

I was really attached to the hinge piece. There was this one really interesting piece in Lego’s, it was like a hinge. It was a simple mechanism, but it was relatively complex for, like, a play toy. And literally you could attach it to things and create a hinge. And I remember being really intrigued by that one piece, and using it for all sorts of different expressions of whatever I was in the mood for at that moment. And for some reason the most vivid memory is this dump truck that could dump things, because it had this hinge piece. There were lots of things that I liked in Lego’s, but for some reason the hinge stands out.

JH

That's so interesting… I mean, it's really, really specific. (laughs) That one Lego piece sticks in your mind from your childhood.

No, it really is! (laughs) I don't know why. It's incredibly bizarre...but it's the one thing that sticks out in my memory for some reason. Because I remember playing with Lego’s for a really long time - probably five or ten years. But for some reason the one that had the most…I think…EXPRESSIVE possibility…was the hinge piece. And I remember everything from vehicles to - I had this one flat board, that you could attach things to and make, like, a landscape of things, like a city, or…I remember I made a parking lot at some point, and I used a hinge piece for a gate. That opens and closes.… (laughs) …I loved the hinge piece.

I would also draw…I did a lot of copying, actually. I would see something I liked and I'd be really impressed by it, and I'd be kind of momentarily infatuated by it. And would start sketching it, and re-drawing it, and re-drawing it. And I did this, actually, for a really long time. I use this technique even to this day - I'm much better at drawing things from real life, like, seeing it and drawing it, rather than drawing it from my mind. And I think…I don't know, I guess it's just like a time-worn thing, copying things that you like, and that's part of the creative process in general.

And now that I think about it, even as a kid, I would draw interiors; interior spaces. Like stairs, and lamps, and couches…and I don't know why, exactly…For a while I really liked stuff from this book - it was intended to help you draw, and I was really into, like, getting better at drawing. And…I'm trying to think. Why interiors? Why spaces like that?

Well, why even drawing? What was it about drawing?

Oh, the act of drawing? (laughs) I think that's kind of my raison d’être, to a certain extent, because…that's the thing that has stayed consistent. That I go to whether I'm working or not. You know? I'll do graphic design for work, but I usually don't do graphic design in my free time. But I will draw, always...And doing it for yourself feels like a free-flowing process. Where you don't have to actually be consciously thinking about what you're doing, and it can just come out of you. Which is something that I like about it. Like, I can just grab a pen and paper, and that feeling, of having a pen and paper, is just viscerally much more comfortable than sitting there…at a piano, for example. Or at another creative outlet. Even at a computer, I feel more….even though I spend most of my life at a computer, I feel more stifled, in a way, than I do sitting with a pen and paper.

Is it a more spacious feeling, or…

Yeah! Spacious is exactly the right word. It feels much more spacious. Even the boundaries of the edge of the paper…they're not even real. You can draw off the edge of the piece of paper, and you can draw over other ones, and you can make other things work with it…and I did this even with graphic design, a lot of times. Like, when I'd start a project, I'd do sketches, by hand. And that process will always go much faster and come much more naturally than if I just go straight to the computer. And I think the reason I started doing that, if I can come up with any reason, was the feeling that I had. It's much more spacious, and I guess that's carried on from an early age, definitely.

Yeah! Okay, so you were a kid who did a lot of drawing, and Lego’s, and… so what else? What else did you love?

Let's see…I loved to run. Specifically running. I didn't love team sports that much, because I was an inherently competitive kid, but I was really…not a good loser. And I took competitive games, and sports, all different kinds of stuff, very seriously. So I loved them, I loved playing sports and games, but I was really sad if I lost. And that eventually led me to stop playing competitive sports, and just keep playing for fun. So for example, Frisbee was a good outlet for me…it has become much more respected and well-established as a sport, but it still maintains at its core… it's supposed to be an "easy" sport. There are no referees; it's all honor-based. It's supposed to be pure fun, and that's how I see it.

There are some sports that I've been drawn to because of that fact, that they're less competitive, because knowing myself…for example, when I was in middle school, I remember being hyper self-conscious about the way I looked, and because of that, I went to these sports camps during the summer - tennis camps, and sports camps, just dedicated to all sports. And I remember loving tennis, and loving sports.

But I recall so vividly, in the same breath…a match where I played my heart out. I gave 120%, and I still lost. And I was just in tears, literally in tears, at the end of it. I just took it so personally, and I couldn't cope with constantly losing stuff that I was trying so hard at. And I would just go back year after year, and never feel like I was accomplishing anything. It was discouraging. So I remember reserving my physical activity for stuff that I really liked. And that became Frisbee, for me - and that's probably why Jesse plays Frisbee now; because we played it so much with my family. My brother and I would always play it in Central Park.

That was actually a big part of my childhood. Every other weekend, I think, during the spring and the summer, we would go to Central Park. We lived in a little suburb outside of New York, and so the trip wasn't too bad; maybe 35 minutes into the city…and it was just great. We’d just go to the city, we'd play some Frisbee in Central Park, and then we'd get smoothies, and watch a movie and have dinner… and it was a nice family tradition that we had.

So the essence of running or playing Frisbee, the feeling of it - again, it's actually the feeling, right? It sounds like that's what it's really about.

It is! It was the feeling. Yeah, that’s what am I talking about. It's always the feeling. I think what I liked about it - I've never thought about this before, but just going out to an open field… because all Frisbee games start with waiting for people to come on. And so you're just waiting, you're throwing around the Frisbee, you're not stretching or anything in particular; you're just kind of finding your way through it. So I guess if I were to make an analogy - when you first start sketching, you may not know what you're doing, but you just draw away. So when you first start playing Frisbee, there's no structure to it. You’re just throwing around a disc, you're running, you can be going fast, you can be going slow - the process is free-flowing; there's no structure. And it can become, at any point, what it wants to.

So the whole point is getting into the zone. Like the mindset where it's an extension of that free-flowing nature. You're really, truly becoming one with that act. And you know, not every time I play Frisbee will I feel that way. Sometimes it'll come so naturally and it'll be perfect, but other times, depending on the day, my mindset, the weather, and a number of factors, it'll feel like a chore…other things will come into play.

Like, for example…I'm not generally the most aerobic person. I'm not constantly on the move. So even on days where… lets say I haven't played a sport in a month or so, and I start playing Frisbee…and let's say the mood is right…I won't even feel out of breath. Even if I haven't played in a while. And I SHOULD be. Whereas even if I've been playing every day for month, and it's just a bad day, I may be out of breath at every point. It's just like everything aligns, and it's really inexplicable. And I was noticing this the other day, when I was playing Frisbee with my friends in San Francisco. Like, I hadn't played in such a long time, but I was playing amazingly well. And it was just this total essence of collective factors that happened to work out, and it was just the mindset that I had going into it was one of…probably freedom. I wasn't tied into anything at that point. I didn't have to live there, I didn't have a job, and I was with my friends, the people that I love, surrounded by all these great things. And it was, like, a beautiful day out. (laughs) It just happened to be a really nice event in general. It's hard to explain…

No, I totally get it! And…honestly, that feeling you're talking about, getting into that space, is sort of like the creative space. I don't know if this is your experience, but when you're in the zone creatively, when you're drawing or whatever, it has the same kind of… feeling of freedom. And flow, right?

Absolutely!

So it sounds like you experience Frisbee - that kind of movement and sport - it sounds almost like a creative act for you, or it can be.

Definitely. And, you know, thinking about it now…when I see it in the context of, like, competitive sports, and sports that I just play for fun, and then I see design in the context of, like, competitive design… in art school … it's not intended this way, but… you're competing against your peers. Whenever you're being critiqued, you're surrounded by other work for the same exact project, and you're basically being judged against every single other person in the room.

And that space always felt closed off to me. I never felt like I could totally be free designing until my final semester of my senior year of college, where I took this class called Poster Design. And even though I was competing against everyone else, there was a shift in the way I saw that class. Because I was almost done with college and didn't have to take that many credits that semester. I only took nine credits, which is just three classes, for one entire semester, which was amazingly free. And I could expend all this extra energy and time and effort on one class. And so I was like, "well, fuck it," you know? I don't have all this pressure; I don't have to prove anything to anyone - I can just make this class exactly what I want, because this is the end of it.

And I produced some of the best work I've ever produced - I think because of a number of factors. And I felt truly, actually validated during that class, more so than I ever had been in those past few years. I'd always doubted myself, and my ability to be at art school, and to be a designer, and… there was never a day, really, where didn't feel like I was an impostor there; like I was…like, pretending to be an artist.

I hear you in terms of the pressure being off, and you were about to graduate, and all that. But was it also the professor? Was there something about the way it was being taught, or was it the actual content of the class - what was it about…?

<Definitely the professor. She was amazing. She was the only professor that ever had really taken the time to compliment her students. So…a lot of the professors that I'd had previously were completely comfortable with respect to everyone's work, seeing that everyone was on the same page and had equal work to do, in terms of improving, but they would rarely compliment everyone. They would basically tell everyone how to improve their work. Which was superbly valuable - I'm not, in any way trying to downplay that at all, because it was definitely necessary for me to improve.

However, this professor, she was very good at actually expressing…just basically telling us that we were good. She would not hesitate to give us real, hearty compliments. And stuff like that really left a mark. Because one, she's an extremely well-known and well-respected poster designer, in the industry of poster design. She's been doing this for, like, 40 or 50 years. She's won many, many awards in the design community. Her word means a lot.

And she would actually compliment me, and say things that I took to heart. And I don't think I would ever become arrogant because of the compliments, because I'm just inherently really self-conscious about my work. And I think the fact that I had some validation, just one thing to hang onto, gave me enough energy to put in the extra effort. And it was just so valuable, and it was completely the professor. There were definitely other factors that played into it, but the professor was like 95% of the reason that it was so effective. That it was such an amazing experience - because of her, as a person, and what she did.

And instead of final grades at the end of the semester you get a little slip that describes your work, your improvement, and what you need to work on, and she said the nicest thing that I'd ever received from any professor - and probably…anyone. Ever. (laughs) It was the most validating few sentences. It was so amazingly profound. And for me, it just created this feeling of…it was more than validation. It was feeling at ease with the fact that I can be a designer, and that's okay. And that was the first time I'd ever felt that way. And that was just…it was a little sigh of relief. It was monumental for me.

Let me back up for a second - when you were in junior high, high school, whatever, you talked a little bit about sports and stuff - but what about school during that time? Were you still drawing? Was there anything else that was coming up creatively? What influenced you?

Let's see. I loved school. Inherently I loved the process of school - just learning things - I would say, other than drawing, the act of asking questions and learning about things and how they relate to one another in the grand scheme, is probably one of the things that's closest to my heart. And I think even more so…this is a pretty strong statement, but…even more so than actually drawing, and the creative act, is the act of conversation and dialog.

I don't think I've ever thought about it, but if I had to put my finger on it – it’s the space that is opened up when you have a conversation with someone who's willing to open up at the same time…to have a dialog that is not really about proving a point, or forcing your opinion on someone else. Which is the opposite of what I like. It's about actually talking about where you come from, and then listening to where they come from, and then finding that middle ground that's so eye-opening, and creates…nothing but empathy, and understanding for more things in general. So I think the beauty of conversation and dialog comes in that space that allows for this bridge to be connected to you and this other person, but also, it opens you up to everyone else who's gone through similar experiences.

So when you see that, with someone else who can go there with you, but is not coming from the same exact place as you… and then you see where they're coming from, and you actually internalize and intellectualize the things they're saying as relatable things…then that opens up all this mind-power…it's hard to explain, because it's this abstract idea of empathy. Which is, to me, just being able to relate to more people. So when you're talking to people, the more you talk, the more you can relate to OTHER people. But on more than a one-on-one basis. For me, it's like, one conversation is not just going to help me get better at talking to people that have gone through that same experience. The more that I do it, the better I get at relating to people. And to me, it's hard for me to imagine something that's more important than relating to other people in this universe where we're all in it together.

So something about school, learning, and having dialogs… in school, and high school, I was lucky enough to have some professors that were not completely by-the-book. In the sense that they weren't there just to – you weren't these empty vessels that they’d pour into, and then you had to pour it all back into a test. They would engage with you. Maybe briefly, but they were definitely willing get into things that you were genuinely curious about. And that was, I think, really vital. And I did this, in fact, since elementary school, and it was really what I loved about school. The fact that you can engage with any subject, regardless of the context, in the same way that you'd engage with something that you inherently love.

Like, art is something that I've always been interested in, but, for example, biology, I'd never thought about. But If I'm on the same wavelength and the teacher's passionate enough…if you FEEL the passion, if you can sense the passion in them, it doesn't matter what they content is. I don't care what they're talking about, as long as they're really involved and engaged, and they're not, like, talking to a book. If they're talking from their heart. It's tangibly different when they're talking through their heart. I'm using these abstract terms, but to me, they're very real, in the sense that I will actually go from shut-off to turned-on; completely by the amount of engagement they have with their own subject.

Yep. I totally get that. And it IS about the heart. Because you're right; you can't be passionate about something if it's not coming from…connected to your heart, right? Passion isn't an intellectual process.

No, it's not.

So, the feeling…again, it's the feeling of it. I totally get that. So the teachers you had, the ones that you're thinking of right now - you're saying that it wasn't necessarily about the subject as much as it was the person, and their engagement with the subject.

Absolutely. The mentors I think I would cite, in high school, would definitely be those that were most passionate about their individual subjects. My biology teacher, she was one of the most amazing people in the world. She had this insatiable urge to know about biology, and she taught it with this beautiful conviction, and she just had this great personality. Exuberant. And I think maybe my personality is more drawn to exuberant people, because I happen to be exuberant. (laughs) And so maybe that kind of helped. But she was definitely one of those people.

And actually, now that I think about it, and say those words, I almost immediately regret it; because my second-greatest mentor was a substitute teacher, and he was an existentialist, he was a pessimist, he was a realist…he never seemed super happy with his life. I think he'd gone from being a…he worked for UPS, and then he was a substitute teacher; I don't even know what he's doing now. But he's a poet, and he would teach different things and he would like, talk about it with me. And he would talk about all the things that he was inspired by. But he wasn't exuberant, as a personality. I think what he talked about was just really fascinating. And he had this…he would engage with me - it wasn't like he would be pedantic, or condescending - he would actually want to engage in it; it was visible. So I guess maybe, what I'm drawn to, is probably visible engagement. Because exuberance implies happiness, and a Joie de vivre, and it didn't seem like he had that kind of feeling, but it was definitely…a feeling of real engagement with the things he was talking about. And that's what I was relating to.

So, he would recommend a book, or a CD, or a movie, and I would go out and get them. I don't think I had ever done that before. If there was anyone that was a MENTOR-mentor, in that sense, that was him. He had my back for like three years, and senior year I got really close to him because I had all these free periods, because I chose not to take AP classes that I wasn't inherently interested in. I didn't want to waste all this time doing stuff that I wasn't really, truly passionate about. So I had all these free periods where I would talk to him in the library, and we would get things he would recommend to me, and I would read his poetry, and we would talk about all of these…anything, really. Anything. And he was always willing to engage. And when I told him I got into RISD, he was not surprised at all. He was like… he expected it. And he's one of the smartest people I know; he's just a brilliant guy. And I had always looked up to him for his sheer intelligence. He was convinced that I could go anywhere I wanted, and I was just so incredibly flattered and honored by that fact.

And one of the things that I think has carried over from that into college is that he's one of the people that validated my… my intellectual capacity. And no-one had ever done that. Because in high school, teachers would just give you a test, you would do well, but you wouldn't be validated in that way. But he was one of the people that actually, really believed in me, in that venue.

Yeah. And it sounds like he really could see you; like he really saw you for who you were.

Exactly! And that's kind of what was so important about it to me.

Now, if I could think of any other…in high school…I would draw in almost every single class that I took. (laughs) To me, almost intrinsic to the process of taking notes is the sketching act. So I would of-course find myself drawing. (laughs) And it's funny - there's doodling, and then there's drawing, and I would definitely find myself drawing very specific things in some classes. So like, if we were talking about a war in American history, I would find myself drawing, like, a battlefield, or guns. If I was in biology, I would find myself drawing animals, plant cells, stuff that was relevant.

And I did relatively well in the classes that I took, and my teachers really liked the fact that I was doing something that no-one else was doing. So in the history, of Blindbrook High School nobody had ever gone to art school. And my school is like…I don't want to say it's super old, but it's maybe 40 or 50 years old. It's a very academically oriented school; everybody goes to Ivy League colleges, or a little below Ivy League. Super competitive. And the fact that I wasn't in that mindset, I think, was refreshing to some of the teachers. A lot of them were my champions, I think, from an early age.

I just recently went back to my elementary school and saw some of my old teachers, and they were just really happy that I was still drawing. And that doesn't really happen a lot, in my school - I don't know how often it happens in life anywhere, where kids that are drawing at a young age continue to draw, and actually pursue that for the rest of their lives. It made them happy to hear that one of their pupils actually did the thing that they were really in love with.

Right! Well, it sounds pretty much like…and I'm sure not everyone was like this, but…somehow, you were given enough space that you were able to continue, no matter what, to draw. So somehow, the space was made for that. People weren't saying, "stop your drawing! Take some notes!"

No! I could not emphasize how blessed I am to have been born where I was, with the people that I was surrounded by. Everyone was my champion. I don't think there's any one person that discouraged me from following that which I loved. Which is an incredible blessing.

Yeah, and you know - I have to say, that really, that is a big deal. Because, boy…I'm not sure I've heard anyone say that. Not quite in that way, at least.

You know, the thing is, Alex…yes, for sure, you were deeply blessed by having these people – but what I'm also feeling as you're describing your life - it seems like you've always been so clear. Like, the most crystal-clear note of music, that just rings through, not wavering – that kind of feeling. It feels like you've always been that, and because you've always been that, people can hear that note, can see it and hear it. So that, for sure, those are great fortunes for you, but also, some of it is coming from you. I think what I'm getting at, is that, you know, it's partly because of YOU, and who you are. You know?

That's interesting. And I never thought about it like that…

Well, it's not the kind of thing you think about yourself. (laughs)

It's funny - in that context - and now I think about it, the purest creative act I have right now in my life is clothing, like, getting dressed in the morning. It’s interesting because I had some backlash from people that I loved, like my brother - actually, it was only guys that had this…it was a little abrasive to some of my friends, and my closest people, that had felt like I had changed. The fact that I had started dressing well.

So, when I was in high school, and before that, I really didn't pay that much attention to how I was dressed. I mean, I definitely chose T-shirts from this website I really liked, that was a conscious choice, but I wasn't really consciously thinking about style. I was thinking about the t-shirt as a t-shirt; like as a means to an end, and how there can be this clever image on a t-shirt, which is a cool medium for it, but it wasn't…it never seemed to me…I couldn't really put outfits together, or…I wasn't even interested in it. It wasn't something that ever occurred to me in a way that was intriguing or had my interest.

Yeah - what happened? How did it evolve?

Yeah… It's so intangible, because…freshman year in college, I wore t-shirts and cargo pants, and that was my go-to uniform, prior to the summer following freshman year. And then after that summer I got a job at Banana Republic, because…for some reason, I felt compelled. I can't explain why, but I was compelled to start working at a clothing store, and for some reason I kept getting this feeling that…I just was really interested in the way that they were dressing. And I had no clothes, none, literally no clothes that matched with this style that I liked. I was like "but this is really cool. Why doesn't everyone dress like this?" So what I started doing was, I started trying to do what I could with what I had. So you know, I would see collared shirts. And I had some collared shirts, but I didn't have anything that was exactly what I wanted. So essentially, long story short, I got to a point where I was trying to create these outfits out of what I had. I would basically put t-shirts on over long-sleeved shirts, and looking back…it was definitely an evolutionary process. (laughs) And it still is…I know my taste is changing every day. And it's definitely one of those things that, over time, grows.

And I remember so vividly that summer, when I had some friends visiting. I was going through this very real transition period, where I was much more conscious of the things that I wanted to be like, and to look like. And it was definitely a visual thing. It was very heavily based on things that I saw and wanted to emulate. And that became, over time, what it is today, which is looking at things and being inspired by them, whether it's on the street, or whether it's on a blog or on a photo that my mom took. And using that, in terms of either looking at the textures, or the colors, or the combinations of them…using that and incorporating that into what I'm wearing on an everyday basis.

And that act had become the forefront of my creative process. More so than graphic design, even though graphic design is my trade - definitely the thing that gives me the most passion, the most happiness, the most satisfaction by far is getting dressed in the morning. And I have no idea why. I'm sure it's exactly the same thread from when I was drawing, when I was learning, but…the feeling has to be exactly the same. It's just that when I'm getting dressed in the morning, it feels like I have all these choices, and I have to take one and create a brand around it.

Over time, I've started to embrace different styles. So for a while, I had to pick a wardrobe, and go with that. If I started off going all over the place, it would feel really incoherent. So when I first started buying clothes, they were very…they were actually all from Banana Republic, because I got a huge discount, and that's where I was being paid, and it was easy, so all my clothes were relatively preppy. And they were a little older, but they were definitely much more formal than anything I'd ever worn before. And that's how I started dressing, V-neck sweaters and collared shirts underneath, and some slacks and Khakis and stuff like that.

And then I started moving, over time, in a different direction. So I started looking at more stuff, and liking…let's see…I liked J-Crew a lot; I went through a J-Crew phase. Actually, it's funny - I liked J-Crew, and then I stopped liking J-Crew, and then I liked J-Crew again. (laughs) It really is this adaptive, constantly dynamic process. It's really about being aware of what's happening and what you're feeling when you're looking at something. And it always comes back to that feeling that you get when you're present with something. Whether it's a shirt, a bag, a work of art - it's like…very visceral; if I see it, I see it, and I cannot see it any other way. And if I don't buy it, I'll be thinking about it for a month.

Right? Yeah. It's like…gosh. I so know the feeling…. I don't know if it's exactly the same, but…like when I'm wearing exactly the right thing, on a given day…I can be more myself. Somehow I am more vividly who I am.

Oh, my god. That is exactly it. No, that's a beautiful way of putting it. That's exactly what it is. I feel more of myself when I'm in clothing that I'm happy with. That's what it comes down to. Everything, literally everything I do that day, comes more naturally - it's hard to explain, but you seem to have hit the nail on the head with those words. That's exactly it.

I totally know what you mean. And for me, what I know is that anyone looking at me on that day wouldn't necessarily go, like "wow! Look at that outfit!" You know? It's just how it feels to me. I can feel like "yes" - I am really who I am today. Because I'm wearing exactly the right thing. And it's almost like I feel… what's the equivalence of volume in color? It's not necessarily brightness, but I just feel more…vivid, somehow.

It sounds like, for you, the expression of your clothes is really an expression of your you-ness. And the fact that it's constantly changing and evolving is, you know, partly an expression of your engagement with the creative process. Like, you are just so…engaged in it all the time. In the same way that you have these connections and conversations that are ongoing, you know? In a way it's also a sort of a conversation. I don't know how, but…it's so cool. It's such a cool thing that you found that.

Was there one particular thing that sparked it, or was this just sort of something that…evolved? Did you see something and just go "oh my god", or…?

Betsy diFrancesca

JILLIAN HANSON: Hi Betsy!

BETSY diFrancesca: Hi Jillian! How're you?

JILLIAN: Good! It's good to talk to you!

BETSY: Yeah! I finally get to meet you, sort of.

JH: Yeah, sort of. Good! I'm glad you didn't have any trouble getting into this conference call line. This is a new company that I'm trying out, so…just hoping that it works. I think the recording quality's going to be better.

So yeah! Just so you know, this is definitely going to be recorded. So…Hi! (laughs)

BETSY: (laughs) Hi!

JILLIAN: So since we really don't…you know, I've heard so much about you from Kim over the years, but we really don't know each other at all, right? So I don't know how much Kim and Claire were telling you about this practice when they were at your house a couple weeks ago. But really, this interview is about wanting to get your story from a very particular point of view, which is the creative spirit; the sort of through-line of inspiration and creativity; how and when and where it's expressed itself through you, in your life and all this stuff.

So I guess what I'm wanting to start out with is just to find out….because I really don't know anything about you, particularly about what your path has been like…where or how does the story of your creative life begin? And, you know, creativity in a larger sense, of self-expression and inspiration and whatever really has turned the lights on for you, you know? So anywhere you want to dive in there, go for it.

BETSY: All right. Well, I guess I started out drawing and just getting very involved in art. I loved art when I was in grammar school, and I remember I used to always draw pictures of hairdos and makeup. I can remember being in fifth grade or fourth grade and drawing these pictures of pretty women that I wanted to look like. You know, that I thought you looked like when you were an adult. And it's funny, because when I was cleaning out my parents' house a couple years ago when they were moving, I found all these drawings that I did that were still on a chalkboard in my mother's attic.

JILLIAN: Oh my god!

BETSY: …and it was funny, because Kim was saying "you should save that! Save that for your book cover!"

JILLIAN: Right! Well…did you take some photos of it?

BETSY: I don't think I did. I just thought it was so bizarre to find something that I did in fifth grade, still on a chalkboard, you know?

JILLIAN: Right! That's amazing, actually, that it was preserved.

So-- let me just interrupt you for a second-- kind of set the stage for me. Where did you grow up? Where are you from?

BETSY: I'm from Piermont, New York, and it was a little Hudson River town. My father was mayor of the village that we lived in. He was also an electrician full time; he was mayor when he got home at night.

JILLIAN: (laughs) that's interesting.

BETSY: (laughs) …and in grammar school, I always got good grades…and loved artwork. But we went to a middle school when I was in sixth grade, and it was a regional school, so all of a sudden there were a lot of kids from different areas. And a lot of kids that had moved from New York City to the suburbs; the parents had moved there to bring their kids up in the country, so to speak. But the kids that I was meeting, all of a sudden, were much more urban, and sort of…well, what I thought of as "worldly". (laughs) you know, than I was. So I just felt like, oh my god, thrust in the middle of these kids that were just much more ahead of me.

And so I found that getting involved in theater was something that really helped me a lot. And that's when I met Kim.

JILLIAN: Wow, in middle school? You guys have known each other a long time!

BETSY: Yeah! So I guess I got into theater through Kim and Martha and Jennice because they were very involved in it; it was happening in their town, in the community theater. And it was just a really great sort of outlet for me.

JILLIAN: So do you remember some of the things you did? Do you remember plays you did?

BETSY: Oh, yeah. We did musicals. We did Pirates of Penzance, and Guys and Dolls. And then when I would be home by myself, I would imagine myself as if I was being the lead in the so-and-so play. But I never had the courage to audition for that. And so when I finally did get the courage up to do that, I GOT a lead in the play.

I started singing, and doing more of that, and getting involved in choir and getting solos in that. So I really kind of put the art-project stuff second, and my music stuff was really the stuff that I was clinging to then. So when I got into college, I was a music major, and then got the lead on some things in college-- and then I left college after two years. It was the same college that Kim went to-- we went to the State University of New York in (TOWN?).

And I left there to move to New York City. I just decided that I wanted to go full force into the acting and singing thing.

JILLIAN: Wow. So did it feel like you'd taken a big change there, leaving school and going into the city and…following your dream, in that way?

BETSY: Yeah. It did, in a way.

JILLIAN: That's a really brave thing to do.

BETSY: Yeah…well, I did it with a boyfriend that was also into acting, and he was kind of the person that got me into…he directed me in high school, in a couple of the plays that I did where I was the lead. So he was really instrumental in giving me the confidence to go for what I wanted to go for. And it felt like it was something I had to do. I just knew I wasn't going to be happy in college anymore. I hated the winter, which is was really a big thing. Because up there, in college, it was winter all the time, it seemed like.

JILLIAN: Yeah, I get it. (laughs) I grew up in Minnesota, so I really know what you're talking about.

BETSY: Yeah. And you know, I just really felt like…I'd always wanted to move to New York City, since I was a kid. I remember when I was in grammar school, and thinking about moving to the city, I wanted to become a secretary. (laughs) That was like a big thing. But this was something totally different, and I just felt like I had to do it.

JILLIAN: And so you did! What was it like? Do you remember what it was like to move to the big city?

BETSY: Yeah-- it was really exciting, but also there was this major scary thing about it. Because for one, my parents were not happy about me moving to no New York with a boyfriend, and were not happy about me leaving school, and were not happy about me going to live in Greenwich Village, which is where we lived.

JILLIAN: What year was this?

BETSY: 1976. And so I kind of did…you know the Beatles song "She's Leaving Home"? You know, I left a note for my parents and just kind of took off. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Oh my god, really? You just left?

BETSY: Yeah. And in fact, when I finally got to New York City and moved in, in all my packing of boxes and stuff, I found that my mother had put in a little book of "(?????) Goes to New York" because I didn't put that there. (laughs) And for the short first duration, I really felt like "(?????) Goes to New York." It was really wild. And also because in Greenwich Village, none of the streets line up the same way that they do in the rest of the city. So you have to know you way around Greenwich Village really well, because it gets really odd down there. The streets aren't numbered; they're all names.

So my boyfriend…we'd go somewhere from the apartment, and he'd say "okay, take me home." (laughs) That was how I learned how to get around New York City. You know, "find your way home now."

JILLIAN: So…what was Greenwich Village like in the 70's? What was it like to be there?

BETSY: Oh, it was really great. I mean, it was very community-like. It was a really small sort of community; you would see the same people on the street every day. And it was just before Soho was coming around-- people were starting to buy up old buildings to make into lofts, and there was always a lot of construction going on down in Soho. And we would always walk down there and see what was going on, and it was great.

I guess I was there about two months, and I got into an off-Broadway musical.

JILLIAN: Wow. In two months? That's pretty great! Do you remember what the musical was?

BETSY: It was pretty wild. It was a show where….it was called Boy Meets Boy. It was a gay musical. It was really sweet; very 30's style, and it was right around the corner from my apartment. Six nights a week, eight shows a week.

JILLIAN: Wow. So what was your part? Do you remember what you did, being in it and being onstage and stuff?

BETSY: Oh, yeah. I was one of three women in the chorus-- there were three women and three men in the chorus. It was a small musical. But it was so great! Every night we'd put on these major false lashes and fishnets. (laughs) It was a real chorus kind of scene. It'd be in this tiny theater on 7th Avenue called The Actor's Playhouse, I think. The dressing rooms were all in this basement, and you could hear all the stuff that was going on on the street from the basement where we had our dressing rooms. So there were all these great little nightclubs and…in fact, Kim's father played his guitar, I think every Monday night, at this little club that was right across the street from the playhouse.

JILLIAN: Oh my god!

BETSY: Yeah. It was just really magical, you know? It was one of those great things. And my boyfriend at the time worked at The Bottom Line, which was a big music venue. We would see anyone from Dolly Parton to Bette Middler, or the Harlettes, which were her backup singers…and so I got to see a lot of music after the show. The show would be over at eleven o'clock at night, and I could go over to West 4th St, where The Bottom Line was-- it was more in the East Village-- and go see a show! It was amazing.

JILLIAN: Wow. It kind of sounds like a magical time.

BETSY: Yeah. I did that for seven months. But there was always hardly any money-- I made sixty dollars a week.

JILLIAN: Were you working another job?

BETSY: On the seventh day, I waitressed. (laughs) I was always exhausted from being up half the night, and having to work a lunch job or something. But it was still a great time to be living there. It was when all the…like, the punk scene started, really, about then. So there was that other club, that was in the East Village-- I can't think of it right now-- (CBGB???) it's closed down. But there was always something going on down there. It was pretty cool.

JILLIAN: It must've been. It sounds like you weren't lacking for inspiration, right? It sounds like such an artistic community to be in, and a lot of fun, and a really interesting time to be there.

BETSY: It was. It was great. I mean, it was hard, definitely…but there was more of an artsy community down there, I would say, than there is now. It's much more upscale. And then there were definitely people who were struggling, but really trying to make it with their art.

JILLIAN: So you must've met a lot of people during that time…did you keep going, then, in the theater?

BETSY: Yeah-- actually, I got my equity card, and I did this children's musical getting my equity card, where I had to travel for three months and do this really terrible version of The Wizard of Oz. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Oh my god. Where did you tour?

BETSY: Pennsylvania and Boston, and then New York. In New York they threw eggs at us. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Oh no! For real? They threw eggs at you?

BETSY: (laughs) Yes. And I couldn't blame them. It was terrible. And I was Dorothy, of course.

JILLIAN: Of course! Wait, so why… the director was awful, or was it some weird take on the play…?

BETSY: It was a weird take on the play, you know? It was kind of like, I'd start singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and it would go "somewhere over the rainbow… (upbeat jazz)…THERE'S A LAND OF LOLLIPOPS AND ROOOOSEEESSS…."

JILLIAN: (laughs) Oh god. So it messed with the classic, and everyone…oh god.

BETSY: Yeah. And not in a good way. (laughs) And then, after that, I came back to New York, and I was waitressing again. And I got into a band with two other women, one that I'd gone to college with and one that I met waitressing. We were in a band called Modern Romance, and it was kind of a disco band, sort of along the lines of Doctor Buzzard's Original Savannah band. It was kind of like swing disco. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Wow.

BETSY: Yeah. You know, it was more geared toward a cabaret sort of thing. We tried very hard to get a record deal, and couldn't, but in addition to being in the band, we did a lot of backup singing gigs with other people. And one was a guy that we went to college with who's now directing Barbara Streisand. He just got finished with Christian (??????)'s show …he does really well. He's really made a name for himself in the Broadway music situation. And another guy that we sang backup with wrote a lot of the songs for Whitney Houston for The Bodyguard. So they were really fun gigs to be doing. I loved backup singing; it was really fun.

JILLIAN: Really? Tell me about that. I've always wondered what that's like. It's such a specific thing.

BETSY: Well, it's really great to harmonize with two other people, and to kind of sing in the middle of all of that, and to know exactly where to go, to the next notes and all that, and I just really loved it. I loved that whole…I liked the little bit of choreography; we did a little bit; not much. We called it "hand-eography" because it was mostly with our hands. (laughs) But it was fun, you know? It was a good time.

JILLIAN: Yeah, it sounds like it. Okay, so did you do that for a long time?

BETSY: I did that for a couple of years, and then I just knew I couldn't waitress anymore. It was really tough.

JILLIAN: I do know. I had a few years of waitressing myself, in my past, and it's just grueling work. It's really hard.

BETSY: Yeah! And in New York, it's just like…New Yorkers and food, oh my god. (laughs) It's like a whole other animal. So I just knew that I wanted to do something else. And I always liked the makeup part of performing, when we'd get ourselves all duded up for a backup singing job, or when we were in Modern Romance, and so I took a course at Parson's School of Design, just in doing makeup for yourself. And I let the teacher know that I really wanted to try to be a makeup artist. And was great. He said "you know, if you just get yourself a Polaroid camera and practice on your friends, taking before and after pictures, and see what works well for the camera." And that was really fun, you know? I really enjoyed that.

JILLIAN: So you did that? You were, like, practicing on people that you knew…

BETSY: Yes. EVERYBODY that I knew. (laughs)

JILLIAN: …and experimenting with what worked and what didn't…

BETSY: Yeah. And then…Kim was working at Self magazine at the time, and she said, "why don't you come with me on some of my shoots? We're basically doing real people, but you'll still get to see what the makeup artist does on the set." And so I did that, and it was great. It was really an eye-opener. And actually, the makeup artist that she had me watch became kind of a mentor-- my first mentor. I'm still in touch with her, you know?

JILLIAN: Wow!

BETSY: Yeah! So that was really great. And with my little stack of Polaroids, I went to the different modeling agencies and said I was a new makeup artist, and can you set me up with some photographers who're looking for pictures, and new models who're looking for pictures, where we would all work for free, but get pictures for our portfolios. So that was really great, to be able to test with new models and photographers, and that's kind of how I got my portfolio together.

JILLIAN: Okay, wait, so…while you were taking the course, and then while you were making some contacts and meeting this mentor and practicing and all this stuff, were you still waiting tables, or were you starting to make money at this point…?

BETSY: I was still waiting tables. But I just knew that I had to do that a little bit longer in order to get my portfolio together. And actually, Kim gave me my first editorial job. And it was for Self magazine, doing somebody who… they were doing a shoot at her house in Nantucket, so I did her makeup for the shoot. So that was really great. And the after that, I got a job doing the MTV awards. And that was through a hairdresser I met through one of the waitresses that I was working with.

JILLIAN: Oh my god!

BETSY: Yeah! And he just said, you know, I think you can do it. He got a whole team together for the MTV awards, and we did it. And one of my first men I ever did makeup on was Sting. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Oh my god, you're kidding.

BETSY: It was really wild. It was at Radio City Music Hall, and just to be in Radio City, in the dressing room where the Rockettes used to, you know… I can remember when we were all waiting, we had our station set up and everything, and the elevator door opened and everybody came off the elevator that I'd ever loved musically. (laughs) Everyone from Sting to Chrissie Hynde…and It was kind of like, oh my god, I'm in it now. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Right! Right! Okay, wait. Sorry, I'm just so curious; I want to back up for a second. There are two parts of this that I'm really curious about. The first is: before you started working with people, particularly stars and singers and stuff, when you first were doing the course at Parson's, what did you like about it? What was it? Just tell me a little bit about…what about being a makeup artist made you want to go in that direction?

BETSY: Well, I had always seen models on the street in New York, and they just always looked… like, they were usually coming from a job, or going to a job, or whatever, but even though they had makeup on, they always looked really natural. And I loved that. I wanted to know how to do that. And that's when Bobbi Brown first-- you know, she was selling like ten lipsticks and three powders in the back of Glamour magazine, you know? (laughs) You'd send away for them. And they were all very natural-looking lipsticks that you couldn't find in a store, then. And so I kind of wanted to be able to do that, and to be able to make somebody look so beautifully natural. To me, that was a lot more difficult than playing to the eight-millionth-row in the theater, when you had to wear huge eyelashes and contour every aspect of your face in order for it to show up.

JILLIAN: Right! And there is also the whole aspect of makeup artistry where-- I don't know if you've ever done any of this, but-- where you'd do the makeup for the (?????) design. You know? It would be much more like creating a mask. Did you also learn to do that kind of thing; to do sort of special effects makeup? Or were you really focusing on…

BETSY: I was focusing on beauty makeup. I loved that. And I really didn't have any interest in any kind of special effects makeup or any of that. I was really interested in just doing a natural look. And I realized that that was much harder to do than the theatrical makeup.

JILLIAN: I would think that's true, yes. I can certainly imagine that.

BETSY: Yeah. I loved working with the colors that were all sort of earth tones, and natural colors. Browns and grays.

JILLIAN: Well, you had to learn…different tones look natural on different skin tones, on different people, under different light, right?

BETSY: Yeah! And I didn't realize… it took a long time for me to kind of get to where I felt like I really knew how to do that. So I was constantly striving to get better at it. But it was funny, because I was testing a lot in New York, you know, with new models, and then at that time, which was like in 1983 or 84, I decided I really wanted to move to LA. I knew I needed to be in a city, but I wanted something that was more…like, where I am now, in the Valley, is much more like where I grew up. It's sort of suburban LA. And I just loved the weather here, and so i wanted to focus on going to LA.

JILLIAN: Had you stopped singing and acting at the point? Were you just focusing on makeup?

BETSY: I was gradually getting out of the singing and acting. And it was not an easy segue-- I really felt like, "how can I give all this up that I worked so hard for?" With singing and acting….but I just felt like, you know…I'd really lost that drive to be a performer. It didn't come easily. I kind of went kicking and screaming. But I felt like I had to either choose one or the other, and for me, I just did-- because I'm not good at multitasking. (laughs) And I just decided that I wanted to focus on makeup, and coming out here. So in '86 I finally came out here, with a different guy that I was then dating, and engaged to, actually. So I came out here and house-sat at different places before I actually made the definite move. I did all these housesitting jobs, which is another whole story. (laughs)

JILLIAN: It's so interesting, they way you'll get to know an area. And being in people's houses when they're not there is a whole particular thing.

BETSY: It's very weird! And most of these houses, they were people that had a lot of animals that you had to take care of, or…the first house that we sat at had all these ancient textiles that had to be in a humid house, so their humidity level had to be a certain way. And it was very bizarre, being in humidity in LA. (laughs) And that house actually came with its own booklet on how to take care of it.

JILLIAN: (laughs) No way! Are you serious?

BETSY: Yeah. And two cats that we had to feed, you know, they were Bombay cats and they had to be fed certain…you had to put it in the microwave, all this nonsense.

JILLIAN: Sounds a little nerve-wracking, actually.

BETSY: It was! It was. And the guy that I was with, it was this guy from Queens, New York. And he was kind of like "What the fuck is this." (laughs) He was not one to follow the rules.

So we did a number of house-sits, all over LA, and everybody had a different story. It was bizarre. But while I was out here, and while I was housesitting, I decided to see if I could get with a makeup artist agency. So I chose a small agency, so that I knew that wouldn't get totally lost in the bigness of a major agency. And that was great, because…his name was Keith (NAME?), and he just had me assisting other makeup artists, so I got to learn more while I was working with them, and I could make money with them.

JILLIAN: So what kind of makeup were you doing? Makeup for movies, or…?

BETSY: Commercials, music videos, still shoots-- it was mostly commercials. And he also said to me, "You know, you're going to have to do hair too." And I just said "what?" (laughs) I didn't do hair. And he said "oh, you can do it." It was just one of those things…(laughs) And he just gave me all this-- hair setters, and brushes, and all this stuff, and he said "here-- you can do it." (laughs)

JILLIAN: Oh my god. But-- hair is a whole different thing!

BETSY: I know! The makeup artist that I assisted also did hair, and he would show me…you know, he really became my mentor out here with everything. It was just amazing what he taught me. Everything from how to behave on a set to how to hold certain curling irons-- just every little thing. What you should wear to this kind of job, when you should go in and do your job-- so it was great. Really great.

JILLIAN: Wow. Okay, so…did you learn how to do hair?

BETSY: Yeah…

JILLIAN: Well, it seems so hard to me. I don't know why. Is it hard?

BETSY: (laughs) Well, it can be, yeah! Now I just say that I style hair and do makeup, and I style hair for everything I do now-- weddings and everything.

JILLIAN: Yeah! So it was important, and you learned how to do it.

So...I'm just so fascinated because it's a whole world that most of us have no access to, right? Creating any kind of commercial or video or movie… so you said he taught you how to behave on the set…so how DOES one behave? Do you have story about that?

BETSY: Well, he kind of emphasized that you have to anticipate what the person you're assisting needs, and also what needs to be done as far as powdering…how you should first ask the assistant director if you should go in… that kind of thing. So you're just constantly anticipating what has to be done. And it was really the best way for me to learn. He would just teach me little tricks. And he was very kind, too, which really helped.

JILLIAN: Right, I can imagine-- because that must've been a nerve-wracking thing to learn on the job. Was it a high-stress kind of situation?

BETSY: Yeah, but it was great, because watching somebody do it…for me, has always been more…that's how I learn. And how he would talk to the actresses or actors, and joke with them…I mean, our makeup room was like the most lively room on the set, you know? That's where everybody wanted to be. It was kind of like the kitchen, you know? Because it was the most fun. And we also would deal with wigs and hairpieces, and things like that, so somebody would always come in and try one on when they shouldn't…(laughs) …it just was fun. It was a really fun time to be doing that kind of thing. The commercial world is different now, too, than it was fifteen years ago or twenty years ago.

JILLIAN: What's changed? How is it different?

BETSY: Well, it felt like it changed around the time of the dot-com era, when that became really…like, everyone was advertising on all these different websites like ETrade and Cnet, and all of a sudden all the directors wanted to go from doing commercials to doing movies. I worked with a lot of directors who started out in commercials and now do movies, like David Fincher and Michael (?????), so all of a sudden it became really intense. They wanted everything yesterday, and they want it done in like ten minutes. Hair, makeup, and nails. You know? It was all very quick, and there was a lot of ego on the set then, too. So that's when I started moving away from commercials and decided that I'd just always loved makeup, and I'd always loved doing brides and weddings.

So…I think when September 11th happened, it felt like I had to just change my priorities. Like, I've got to do what I want to do, and what pleases me…I just had to be happy, you know?

JILLIAN: Yeah, right, exactly! I mean, it really did that for everyone, I think, to greater and lesser degrees. It re-oriented everybody in similar ways.

Okay, so… you did commercial work and music videos and stuff for how long before…

BETSY: For about fifteen years. And I've been doing weddings now since about 2001. And that was like a whole thing of getting a website… because my agency didn't want to do weddings at all. So I just broke off and started doing weddings, and I really liked it.

JILLIAN: So you only do weddings now?

BETSY: I also do headshots, and I've been doing these jobs for the YouTube Initiative-- YouTube now has a channel called The Tasting Room, I think it is. It's all these little segments every week on different chefs around town. There's seven questions that they ask in the kitchen-- the ask the same questions and they all approach it differently. It's really great. So I'm doing that, special events…

JILLIAN: Right. Wow! Yeah. Okay, so we're sort of up to the present day?

BETSY: Yeah.

JILLIAN: And do you ever sing or act or anything these days?

BETSY: Nope. I have no interest in it. (laughs) I mean, occasionally I sing in the car when I'm in traffic, but that's it. I have no interest in performing-- I'd much rather be behind the scenes.

JILLIAN: Right. Actually, I get that. I've had a similar journey in performance myself. I have a background in theater also, and did it for a long time, and then a moment came when I also was like "you know what? I need to stop." It was difficult! It was sort of a wrenching moment in my life, and yet I just had to make the break.

BETSY: Right! It's hard to explain that feeling where you're kind of going…I want to hold on to it, but I don't, you know?

JILLIAN: Yeah! Well, what it meant to keep doing it was that there was too much I'd have to give up, you know? There was a way in which it just wasn't working for me anymore without too much sacrifice. And for me it was also about…I became a mom, and having to try to juggle having a baby with that whole world… but it was so wrenching to have to do it, and yet now-- that was seventeen, eighteen years ago-- and I don't want to. People say basically the same thing that I'm asking you-- you know, "will you ever do any acting on the side…do you want to…you have all this training…" …and I really don't! It's over!

BETSY: Yeah! That was like my other life! (laughs)

JILLIAN: Yeah! And somehow, that part of me is being expressed in an entirely different way. So, all of that to say-- I get it. I really get it.

So I'm curious to hear a little bit more-- you get to do bridal parties, on the day, and all this stuff-- what is that like, and what do you love about that? It's its own sort of thing...

BETSY: Well, one thing that's really great about it is that I'm finally doing…like, my tagline for my business is "the most beautiful version of you." So I feel like when I talk to a bride-to-be, and we're talking about the look she wants to go for….we start out by doing a trial run where she gets to try different looks. A couple weeks before the wedding, or a couple months before the wedding. And I take pictures of her after we try each look, and then I print them for her right there. And she can take the pictures home with her and decide the look that she wants to go with, or if she wants to work with me. But also, she gets to see how her makeup reads for the camera-- because they don't realize that you have to have, even if you never wear makeup on a regular basis, that you have to have some on to look good on camera. Your pictures are your memory of the day. And you're wearing white, usually, and that has a tendency to wash everybody out. I tell them to come with a camisole or a tank top that's the same color as her dress, and bring whatever she needs to bring as far as…if she's going to be wearing a veil, or whatever. So I shoot her from all different angles. And I'm a terrible photographer, but I figure if she'll look good in my pictures, she'll look good with a professional. (laughs) But it does give her an idea. And if she's not used to wearing, say, lashes…I use individual false lashes just to give her a little bit of a lift. They feel real; you don't even know that you have them on.

So: everything is geared toward making her feel comfortable, and like herself…but on the best day of her life.

JILLIAN: That's so good. Yes.

BETSY: And so I feel like I always want to convey to them that if we get it all down at the trial run, then we have nothing to worry about the day-of. And that's the last thing you want to have to think about the day of your wedding. I shouldn't have to be worried about what look I'm going for or how my hair's not going to work in the veil…you know, the whole thing. So I try to give her an idea of what all will be happening with her look. And I give her a little touch-up kit that has blotting papers, the lipstick I use, an lip-brush, and some bobby pins, and I also talk with the maid of honor; make sure that she's attending to the bride, you know? They have a tendency to forget that, especially in this town. Everybody's like "oh, it's my time to be on the red carpet." (laughs) It's like, wake up ladies. You're attending to a bride! But you know, I do it in a much more subtle way. But I just try to cover everything. I bring straws, in case they're all drinking something and they don't want to mess up their lips…I just try to anticipate everything. I learned that.

JILLIAN: Yeah-- there's a LOT that you've learned over the years, that only you would know…

BETSY: Yeah. It's been fun! And this finally makes sense to me, you know? I feel like I've learned everything…and I always just wanted to make the women pretty, and make the men handsome, you know? So It feels like this really works. and when I have them over to my house, for the trial run-- I try to always make it here, unless it's really inconvenient for them. But I set out tea and cookies and fruit, and we talk about what they want. I don't like them to feel like they're getting a bum rush-- "sit down, we'll talk about your look, and raahhh…" I try to ease them into it. (laughs) Because also, they're coming to a stranger's house, and they're at their most vulnerable-- with no makeup on, and they have to say what they want. And I tell them "you can bring a friend if you want, if you feel better with a friend, or your mom, whoever, and we'll just have a party." (laughs).

JILLIAN: Right! So do you ever just consult with people or do makeup for them for other events as well, or is it mostly specializing in weddings?

BETSY: Yeah, I also do special events. I've done different people who have gone to the Oscars or the Emmys. A lot of it is similar; just what they're wearing is different, and…they're going to be in a lot of different kinds of light. And so we try to check them outside, and check them inside, and make sure they're looking good in all the different lights-- that's a lot of fun too.

JILLIAN: Yeah. Well coming up for me is that you really have particular thing that seems so valuable-- because it's a skill and a talent that you have, and it's not common. And just from talking to you, hearing you talk about it, and hearing about all your experiences, what comes up for me is that as an almost 50-year-old woman, I've never been comfortable with my relationship to makeup. (laughs) I wear a little bit, but i don't know a thing about…the only thing I have ever been taught about makeup is stage makeup, which is completely different, right? And I would love to have a consultation with you about: here's what looks good on you, here's what doesn't, here's what you want to do for special occasions when you are going to be photographed.

Because let's face it, we're all being photographed now a lot more than we used to be. it used to just be special occasions; someone would haul out the camera. Now it's just always. Right? We're always all being photographed, all the time.

BETSY: I know! With cameras in every phone!

JILLIAN: Exactly-- and it's a little hard to take sometimes, right? So for me personally, that would be a really valuable…

BETSY: Oh yeah, next time you come out, we can do a lesson.

JILLIAN: Yeah! Because I don't know what to buy, I don't know what colors…you know, I don't wear foundation because I don't know how to put in on so that it's not really noticeable as foundation, you know? I'm sure that I could look a lot better. (laughs) You know, I'm getting older, my skin is uneven, blah blah blah….

BETSY: Well, I saw your pictures from your wedding, and you looked gorgeous. When Kim went to your wedding and she had the pictures…oh, you just looked gorgeous.

JILLIAN: Well, as we're talking about weddings, of course I'm thinking about my own. And thinking about how…It was one of the things I was sort of stressed out about was the makeup. Because, as I said, I don't really know what to do with myself. (laughs) And, you know, you can spend all this time picking out the right dress and all this stuff…and I was also thinking, this is my second marriage and I'm not doing this again. (laughs) For sure this is…I mean, I guess "never say never", but hopefully, right? And this is my last chance to look really smokin'…I had a friend come and do my hair, but the makeup was the one thing. And it's funny, because I was all dressed, and I was just about to go downstairs, and my friend, who had done my hair, was like "wait! What are you doing!?" and I said "what do you mean? It's time to go!" And she said "you don't have any lipstick on!" And I was like, "but I never wear lipstick!" and she said "you do NOT go down to your own wedding without lipstick." (laughs) And the thing is, she was right. (laughs) She was! because when I look at the pictures now, every time I look at the pictures I think "thank god she made me put lipstick on!" because it looks so much better! But I wouldn't have done it, because I didn't…you know? That's the thing.

BETSY: You know, it's so true for a lot of women that I work with. They say "I don't wear makeup on a regular basis." So we go really easy, and we just work from there-- I show her. We do a before picture, and an after, and then a very-much-after-that picture…so she can see how different colors will affect the picture. And she can choose whatever she wants…and I just make her feel totally comfortable. You know? That's really important for me, anyway, when I work with them, is that they feel like they can walk down the aisle and everybody will know that it's them on their best day. You know?

JILLIAN: Right, right. Well I would love that. So someday we'll do that. For real, I'd really like to do that. But also, I'm wondering if that's something that you want to pursue with your business.

BETSY: Yeah! I love just working with somebody for their everyday look. I think that's a great thing to learn, and I think I'd be good at that. I mean, it's funny-- the next thing I want to do is I want to convert our garage into a makeup studio, so that it really feels like it's my business, and they're going to an actual studio. But yeah, I'd love to do that…that would be…and, you know, I do it for different people that are just going to a party that night, or whatever, and they just want to look better than they usually look, so…yeah! You should come, and we would have a nice time doing that!

JILLIAN: Yeah! Well, I'll definitely be out again, and I do want to meet you in the flesh, regardless of whether or not you help me figure out how to put on makeup. (laughs). That would be great.

So…you want to make your garage into a studio. What else are you wanting? What is feeling inspiring to you just in terms of your work, your life…what next?

BETSY: Well, I feel like…you know, I'm just so close to what I want, and that's just a little bit more work. I pretty much do a wedding a weekend right now, and I would just like a little bit more work; maybe two weddings a weekend and do a trial run or two during the week. But I'd like to have, also…I love working in my yard and my house, and that's really where I get a lot of comfort, as far as…instead of meditation, I work in my garden.

JILLIAN: Yeah! I saw some pictures of your garden and your house, and it was just beautiful.

BETSY: Oh, thanks!

JILLIAN: I really can see…I get that sense from you, definitely. So say more about that…gardening is like meditation for you?

BETSY: Yeah-- and we have an actual vegetable garden now, and we eat out of that; have a salad from that every night.

JILLIAN: That's so satisfying, isn't it?

BETSY: It really is. And it's a lot of work-- I do all the mowing and the gardening. My husband helps too, but right now he's only available on weekends, and he's really bogged down with his job-- he's in TV production. When he works, he works all the time. He gets hiatus every year, where he gets months off at a time, which is so great-- then we really work on stuff together, and it makes such a difference. I mean, it used to be that he would cut down everything I put up. You know, he took that hunter-gatherer thing way too far. And he wouldn't gather anything up afterwards. (laughs) I'd have to do all the gathering, putting it in bins and stuff. And he would cut the wrong thing, and, you know…now he knows more about the garden and what works and what doesn't. So he really is a major help. (laughs)

JILLIAN: How did you learn gardening? Was that something you just taught yourself, or…? I mean, that's also not easy.

BETSY: Well, we learned by killing. (laughs) We killed a looooot of stuff. (laughs).

JILLIAN: Well, I do the killing without the learning. I don't have a green thumb, I guess. (laughs)

BETSY: Well, one thing about California is that you pretty much can't go wrong with the weather, for gardening. The only thing is that we live in the Valley, which is always about twenty degrees hotter than the rest of the town, especially the beaches. So it's kind of hard…I've tried to make and English garden in the desert, basically. That doesn't really work. (laughs)

JILLIAN: To me, from the pictures, it was working pretty well…

BETSY: It has its moments. Spring works really well; it's just now it's getting into the summer where everything starts looking a little crunchy. The grass makes a lot of noise when you walk on it. But basically, it's really a great weather to garden in. I just love it. It's something that I picked up because I wanted everything to look nice, and I didn't realize how much I was going to enjoy it.

JILLIAN: Right, right.

So if we can just get my studio made, that would be great. My husband looks at me like, "right, okay…you want to do what?" (laughs) And "where are we going to put all our stuff that's in the garage?" And I say…"when in doubt…throw it out." (laughs)

Anyway…I think it'll happen. I just have to ease into it.

JILLIAN: Well, like everything. It'll happen in its own time.

BETSY: Right!

JILLIAN: Wow. Well, it's been so amazing, so interesting to hear your story. Definitely, the way this has been going-- I may want to talk to you again. I listen to these interviews and transcribe them, and then all these other questions come up that I didn't ask in the moment-- you get caught up in the story of the moment. So I hope, if you don't mind…

BETSY: Oh sure! Any time, any time. Please feel free. You know, because I'm sure I missed a lot too. (laughs)

JILLIAN: Well, is there anything else that…now that you've sort of taken me all the way through that through-line in your life of your own self-expression and creativity and stuff-- is there anything that comes up…either that you missed, or that you noticed, having talked through it?

BETSY: Yeah…it might be something that I'll think of later on, and I'll jot it off in an email to you, and if you want to talk to me more about it, we can arrange another talk. But I think I've covered, basically, what I've been through, and continue to go through. I think that's it.

JILLIAN: Okay. Also, I'm always curious to know from folks, after the fact, a day or two out, having told the story from this particular perspective, and having spent an hour, or more than an hour talking about yourself…what the experience brings up for you, you know? Tomorrow, when you think about it-- just how it felt, or if it brings up any memories that you hadn't thought about in a really long time…you know what I mean. If it makes you sort of think about things or your life in a way you haven't-- or not, it may not have that impact, but sometimes it kind of wakes something up for people-- so I'm curious about that too.

BETSY: Okay! I'll keep that in mind.

JILLIAN: Yeah! Well, thank you so, so much. I'm so appreciative of you doing this.

BETSY: Oh, thank you! You made it really easy. (laughs)

JILLIAN: It was so interesting, such a fascinating story, and I just loved hearing everything. And yeah, I'm sure I'll have more questions. So I'll let you know. I have your email, and you have mine, and I'll see you…you're a Facebook person, right? On the Blue Sky page, right?

BETSY: Yeah, that would be great. Well, thank you Jillian!

JILLIAN: Thank YOU, Betsy! So much. It was so great to hear your voice, and we'll talk again.

BETSY: Okay, take care!

JILLIAN: You too! thank you so much.

BETSY: Bye!

JILLIAN: Bye!

Patricia Lee Lewis

Hannah Ruskin

Ian Philip Levy

Phoebe Allen

In college I had to take Global Lit 2, and I remember I signed up for it and I was like, “alright, whatever, let’s just get this over with.” And it turned out to be the best class ever. So…it was taught by a teacher who was Buddhist. The readings were very philosophical, but a lot of it was also poetry. Everything we were reading was based on a lot of Buddhist principles–the idea of staying present, and staying true to yourself, and not being attached to too many things, and just trusting yourself…staying on course in the present, and not thinking about the future or the past. There was just a lot of amazing stuff in that class. the idea of staying present, and staying true to yourself, and not being attached to too many things, and just trusting